Lismore Lands Forum
Lismore => Events => Call to Roleplaying => Topic started by: Ashtyn on February 01, 2014, 04:24:32 am
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There have been some rumors and debates concerning Lismore's slavery laws and practices, so once again Xahu, wanting to know what the people are thinking without being put on the spot, hired a few secret agents, to wander around and listen, and in case where conversation is possible, outright ask people what they think should be done about slavery in Lismore. These agents would be undetectable from background NPCs that would be around town on a daily basis.
This poll is to simulate them gathering information! You can assume your character(s) came in contact with one of these agents at some point, or was overheard if you're the vocal type who would call for someone's death after a few mugs of beer at the inn. So please cast your vote as to what your character would have said that should be done about slavery in Lismore!
(you can choose TWO options on the list, or post your own idea)
Remember this is all IC opinions! In RP slavery is a plot element, a kink, a fetish, a pretend situation. This has nothing to do with RL slavery which is preposterous!
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I voted for the limit further options, because IC all my characters would just flat out abolish it. Since I know some want to play slaves and a compromise is the most likely thing to happen ICly if anything would be changed i picked the most likely options. Limiting it to criminals and those who give themselves freely :)
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I think the issue is clarity and definition, too many people playing "slaves" when they should be playing Indentures, Serfs or Bondsmen
A Slave is a tool, more on the level of a plow or horse then a person, this is not to say they are simple things quite the contrary. a slave is a valuable investment in time training and keeping but they are not people and many who play "slaves" play them as slaves in title only they are never treated as such. they are more or less one of the lowest rungs on the social ladder despite some having privelage and comfy lives they should not, unless their work requires it be socialising with others above their station. there should be laws about where they can go, they should not be permitted weapons and hostile acts even in self defense should be grounds for severe punishment, except in cases where they might be defending their owners or their owners home and property. and they can be altered or used in any manner their owners see fit with little to no protection from the law, tho chopping them up in the city square would likly get the owner in trouble, it shouldnt be seen as much worse then someone trashing a car. The owner is also responsible for any act or crime the slave engages in.
Indentured Servants on the other hand are criminals or debtors who are working off their debts, they have a set time or value they must work off then they become free again, usualy they are also required to "earn their keep" paying for food housing and clothing beyond their assigned chores to work off their debt, these ARE people, and while the holder of their contract can punish them and if nessesary shackle them to keep them working, they are basicly employees who have no choice in the matter, their contract can be sold and offten have zero say in how they are to pay off their debt, the contract holder can not willy nilly beat them or work them to death or abuse them and they should be treated as citizens tho a rather low rung on the social ladder until they pay off their debt. Their owner while he cant be willy nilly on their treatment, is also not responsible for their indentured servant's activities outside of what hes told. The law will generaly step in if any sort of abuse occures tho it will also enforce the Indetured contract running away is usualy punished by lengthening of the contract, murder modification and the like would not be allowed, but flight risks would offten be chained or caged when not supervised.
a Bondsman is similiar to an indentured Servant, they are someone who has agreed or contracted a certain time period for money training or some other favor, they are neither to be treated as slaves or Indentures these are employees pure and simple, the initial agreement usualy sets the amount of time, and labors involved and both parties are in complete agreement similiar to a work contract the Bondsman will be provided for by his employer and should be protected under the law as any normal employee. This is purely a buisness contract abuses would be treated as assault, and dereliction of the bondsman in his duties would be seen as a breach of contract. This is a person of any standing and his bond doesn't effect his social status much and may raise it in some cases such as an apprenticeship to a great warrior or wizard.
a Serf is basicly a low ranking citizen, they are bound to the land they work on for their lord, they are people but with some limits on their freedom, they are usualy not permitted to emigrate elsewhere but they are people and should be as such, as long as they work the land and pay their taxes their local lord should also make sure they are kept safe and healthy.
I think the issue a lack of clarification and proper views.
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Okay, personally? I can see what Lycanthrope (because i dont know what character he has, to be honest) means, and i agree actually. Andrea is my slave-character. She is used to be the lowest thing on the social ladder, to be abused, to be treated badly, beaten and after all she was more like a rare sex-slave as a chameleon. So something people got and thought "Well, look how wealthy i am." She was a furniture or maid at best, and tied to a chair in a questionable position at worst - and most importantly - most of the time, and her personality is nothing anyone cared about. She had one use and her vocal cords where cut so she could not annoy her owners with anything else... It's... probably odd but i kind of like that idea of a character like that. The point is she is not dumb, she is not under educated because of her life before her abduction, but with one exception that never mattered. And that kind of what i think a slave has to go through. They where poor people that got into slavery either by abduction or by being born into it because one reason or the other made them appear worthless to a majority.
Its the thing of the owner of course how he treats his slave. Andrea was owned by Sansha and Tari till they stopped playing and is now owned by Vheljen who are both nice characters. They treat their slaves more like friends, housemaids, people paid to work for them. I admit i would like and have liked them to be much more strict, but im fine with how it is too because it is and was fun playing with them always, but i agree strongly here that the laws should be more strict. In RL and most of my characters despise slavery obviously but... For the RP you either keep slavery and have it feel like slavery due to laws and restrictions that need to be enforced by the owners, or you can kind of drop the idea all together. I think we kind of play that role because we... got a strange enjoyment for this feeling of being controlled, owned, held in check and all. So just as well give us pressure by law. x..x I... actually liked the idea of this check up for slaves if they had any sort of illnesses or what nots, and i was... kind of sad it was not really a thing and just flavor-text for the news... because it would give a bit of that feeling of pressure, which is also something important for a character if you want to develop him or her.
If you make slaves sell themselfs and this is the only way they become slaves, i could not play Andrea by the way. She spend half of her life as a slave, and despite being still rather young, she can not just go and do things on her own, which was quite a thing to rp with since i made her, with characters trying to help her develop into something that can live on its own. If its a decision, it is not a slave to begin with anyhow, which you can also see out of Lycans post. Its an entirely different thing then, so if you want to do that, you can just as well throw it out entirely because it misses the whole point, and you are nothing but a butler. Just my five cents!
So about the characters...
Most of them are against it. Kira risked being jailed.. or at least wanted for a while to free a group of slaves (but thats not ic knowledge, nobody caught her after all till the thing was payed for). She is a street-kid grown up after all, and somehow feels close to people that are in a similar situation like slaves are, but even worse off as they lack the chance of a free will. Robin was a slave and is still so traumatized he does not like living in cities, amongst another thing just few people know. Harleen despises slavery because she is a very very moral doctor. She has something like the Hippocratic oath for herself, even helping wounded enemies and obviously slaves don't work with a personality like that. Thats some examples.
However, some of mine are pro or indifferent. Quinn does not care, simply because she follows the laws very closely unless the one making them is corrupt or the law itself is against the laws of Kynesguard. But even tho slaves are innocent; When the law protects slavery, she cant involve herself. She is like that. Miralda and S'Kifcha both got a certain Agenda: If you are a slave, and are not strong enough to stop being a slave, you probably are better of as one. Miralda does that in a careless manner however, while in S'Kifchas case, it is an opinion, but she will gladly aid anyone who is willing to break free. Both had to fight a lot to be what they are, but are much rougher then Kira is in their judgements.
I think we should not at all remove that concept tho... Maybe the majority of played characters is against it, but lets assume the NPCs are all loving it. |D
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[...] I... actually liked the idea of this check up for slaves if they had any sort of illnesses or what nots, and i was... kind of sad it was not really a thing and just flavor-text for the news... because it would give a bit of that feeling of pressure, which is also something important for a character if you want to develop him or her.
...oh yes, thank you for reminding me! We need to set a date for that as an event!
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...and let's not forget something: This is potential for IC situations. This has nothing to do with OOC "I like to play a slave" sentiment. Some people have often complained that they can't do anything to alter the RP, well, here you have it, alter it if your character would do it so! This kind of IC social reform could lead into all kinds of interesting situations, from throngs of slaves thrown out in the streets because their former masters don't want them as "workers", to illegal trades conducted in the back of an alley at night, to the tightening/loosening of laws concerning slavery, and everything in-between. :)
And again, this is a research on people's opinions, not a "we will do exactly as the votes decide!". Xahu likes to know what the people are thinking/feeling, to help him make an educated decision when the subject of slavery inevitably comes up, so to keep his approval rate high with the people. ;)
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As far as the inspections, we can try to find a way to increase the number of people who can perform the inspections so that they're more eventy than flavor texty, but folks would have to find someone willing to do it. The last thing we want is to put obligations on our inspectors - "HEY! I'm here, you have to inspect me now, the law says so!"
Radem's abbreviated take:
- No one should be born into slavery.
- No one should be made a slave because they're less good at swinging a pointy stick than someone else.
- There are some rare cases where people who commit crimes should be indentured or enslaved until such time as they make amends for what they did. If you break your neighbor's fence, you see to it the fence is fixed. If you keep breaking it because you're a rich jerk and don't care, then you should be made to pick up a hammer and nails and fix it yourself.
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I doubt thats how it should be anyway. .o. Have it an Event, have the Leaders declare someone either calling them all together or going from house to house. So...
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I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"
People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.
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I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"
People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.
Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
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Generally I would vote to leave it as is or abolish partially (No new slaves imported). However, in the case of extreme crimes, I wouldn't be against forced servitude. Say someone threatens the royal family (And is believed widely to carry out that threat at the earliest convenience). They would be forced to serve the public somehow, and their home painted a red color. Why Red? To symbolize the blood they wanted to spill.
In the case of EXTREME crimes (Such as murder/Pre-med murder), the character themselves will be given a loin cloth or some other article of clothing that will mark them as a criminal slave, forced to serve out their sentence by esrving the city. These criminals would have -no- rights, and -no- property. Their bodies would belong to the royal family, and therefore, the City of Lismore. Killing one of these slaves would be punishable by excruciating death ((Call that part my inner demon speaking))
I doubt any of my ideas will be used, but here they are. ^^
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I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"
People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.
Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
ICA:ICC is not an end-all explanation. What people want OOCly should be taken into account.
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Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
I bet a majority of characters are against taxes too. And rich people being too rich. And a lack of free pie on demand at all times.
I think the OOC opinion on "what's the most fun" trumps IC sensibilities.
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I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"
People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.
Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
ICA:ICC is not an end-all explanation. What people want OOCly should be taken into account.
Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
I bet a majority of characters are against taxes too. And rich people being too rich. And a lack of free pie on demand at all times.
I think the OOC opinion on "what's the most fun" trumps IC sensibilities.
Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?
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Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?
Because you said:
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
That sounds pretty cut and dried.
I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.
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Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?
Because you said:
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
That sounds pretty cut and dried.
I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.
I agree, and as I pointed out, if slaves and such are really so against slavery IC, they should go to the Temple or Phoenix where they are offered greater freedom than in the City. And I'm sure there are people who are all for slavery ICly, a few of my characters included
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Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?
Because you said:
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.
That sounds pretty cut and dried.
I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.
Maybe it sounds pretty cut & dried, but I don't deal in subtext. I just literally described what'll happen when the majority vote IC is against it, nowhere in that statement did I (intentionally) imply the following: "OOC doesn't matter".
This hasn't been brought up because it's "broken", it's brought up because people are being vocal IC about the matter. And because the rulers are benevolent, they will try to react in favour of a vocal majority. If the majority of players are in favour of it, which seems to be the case, then they too need to OOCly account for ICA:ICC & have their characters become less vocal, otherwise this is an IC issue that'll eventually be brought up again. It's a case of "help us help you"; less loudness of the anti-slavery crowd IC = less chance of the matter being brought into question again IC = everybody's happy OOC.
And frankly, it makes the characters who push for change in response to the vocal IC response to slavery (specifically in my case, Ewyllyn, who pushed for this) look like idiots for reacting the way they would IC for it & start pushing for change to please the crowd ICly. It really puts them on the spot when all they hear is how bad it is & then they move to change it, and suddenly everybody's happy with it. So I'll admit there is a bit of personal disgruntlement from my end reading the responses and arguments here, because the way it'll play out now thanks to the disparity between the vocal IC majority & the OOC player majority, is that instead of hearing the ICly expected results from the research, she'll be hearing the majority is actually for it.
So what will I have my character claim happened IC? That she was lied to?
If we need to be that considerate of OOC (an attitude I've discouraged from the very beginning, but fine, I can respect it), I think it's even more important to consider the IC repercussions of your IC actions. If you're OOCly opposed to that something should change because of something your character does, then you probably shouldn't have your character do it, otherwise you'll end up making other players feel like idiots because their characters reacted to what your character did. It's just not cool.
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I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.
But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?
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I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.
But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?
I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.
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I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.
But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?
I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.
No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.
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I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.
But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?
I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.
No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.
But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.
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I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.
But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?
I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.
No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.
But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.
I never once said I didn't consider it. And yes, since I advocate the consideration of OOC desires, I do not advocate the notion that they should not be taken into account.
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I never once said I didn't consider it. And yes, since I advocate the consideration of OOC desires, I do not advocate the notion that they should not be taken into account.
In other words, we're pretty much in a feedback loop.
OOC consideration is a two-way street though. We can't have both ICA:ICC AND OOC consideration, not without a lot more communication between players than we have today. Honestly, the way it is today is genuinely discouraging me from engaging in RP with my more influential characters because they will react in their own ways to the things that occur around them. They gain opinions completely dynamically, they react differently to different things, other players around them will dynamically influence their actions, opinions, thoughts & life as a whole.
I'm sure you'd be pretty disgruntled if you would have your character act out of character because someone asked you to. I would most certainly be disgruntled by it (even though I generally will yield on that since I'm staff & I'm not in that position to walk all over players with my own characters, I generally always adapt to suit other players if it's required). And if I have to think about what other players think OOCly all the time, my entire RP process is going to be maybe 3 posts, then an IM to the player I'm RPing with asking if this and that reaction is okay, and that is not how I want to RP, nor do I feel it is very engaging.
And there are other RPers like me in Lismore too, even outside the staff. Are we going to have to just step aside in favour of the other RPers who aren't so happy with freeform RP? Are they not to consider us?
So how do we build an efficient communication platform for OOC->IC without compromising the RP flow and/or frustrating/discouraging player(s)?
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I don't agree at all that ICA:ICC and OOC consideration can't coexist. They have for quite a while, it's just a matter of knowing what is very likely to have an impact on roleplay that people enjoy doing - this is especially true when you're playing a character who is in a position of power.
And about being disgruntled? Maybe, but that entirely depends on why i'm being asked and what i'm being asked to change. You can't generalize it like that.
While RPing with the OOC feelings of others in mind i've never had to second guess myself every three posts.
So, frankly, I don't entirely agree that it's an issue with communication.
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I'll voice my own opinion later when I can be arsed to, personally I think this topic is kind of getting out of hand...but I will point out one thing.
But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.
Tenaar, you're being awfully selfish there cause you're only pointing out that your OOC opinion should matter, when your opinion is that no one's OOC opinion should matter.
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I don't agree at all that ICA:ICC and OOC consideration can't coexist. They have for quite a while, it's just a matter of knowing what is very likely to have an impact on roleplay that people enjoy doing - this is especially true when you're playing a character who is in a position of power.
And about being disgruntled? Maybe, but that entirely depends on why i'm being asked and what i'm being asked to change. You can't generalize it like that.
While RPing with the OOC feelings of others in mind i've never had to second guess myself every three posts.
So, frankly, I don't entirely agree that it's an issue with communication.
Let's use this situation as an example then, since slavery was the subject in this topic originally: say you have a character lead a kingdom with 2 people in it, & both of them were against slavery IC, but OOCly told you they don't want the situation to change OOCly, then how are you going to have your leader character react? If that leader is benevolent & would've listened to their people, acting out of character because the other two characters' players OOCly requested things not to change would be a very frustrating experience, would it not?
That's essentially what's happened to Ewyllyn. She's been mingling with the people, listening to their pleas and generally hearing them out, and she hears them even when she's not outside mingling. The result is that the slaver-turned-empress felt, because of the sheer amount of IC feedback, that it was necessary to speak with Xahu about maybe looking at revising the laws or finding a solution to it, the reason for that being that, and I paraphrase from the RP log of that event, "nearly everyone I speak or hear about are crying out against it".
So OK, here I OOCly see an opportunity for my character to try and do something that people will like ICly and that fits just right with how she'd have reacted to this, so I decided to make her go for it, since she does have the power/influence to make even more of a difference than many other characters do.
Since we don't communicate well enough OOCly, how am I supposed to know OOCly that the majority of people OOCly are opposed to see it changed? More frustratingly, why does it take an IC poll to get this kind of OOC information?
How can ICA:ICC occur if OOC is just going to constantly block it? I've submitted to OOC brakes on several occasions before & I still do, I'm not out to ruin anybody's RP, but I would appreciate consideration in return for the way I RP.
Then I run into another issue: how can my character react in a significant way, that won't require me to 'ask permission' from the players it will affect, when their characters are the ones to trigger it in the first place?
I don't think we're going to ever be able to see 100% eye to eye on the matter, Ani, because I see problem after problem where you see none, particularly when engaging with other players who aren't used to me and that I am not used to. And I will end up having to second-guess myself because I keep engaging new people who come to the sim, players that I don't know well, and it's my job to make sure that they have a good experience here.
And that is also a conflict with the way I prefer to RP, simply in the nature of my job here.
So yes, I would actually very much appreciate enough communication to know where people stand on things OOCly if I absolutely have to consider people's OOC when RPing, so instead of freeforming what my characters would do & end up with this discussion, I can actually think up another thing my character would do in response instead so my RP time doesn't have to be wasted ranting angrily about ICA:ICC & OOC consideration... I really feel that my time can be better spent than being a vocal minority against a majority group on this particular subject.
edited: I'm agitated & formulated my response to Nova poorly. I'll reply to that later.
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Uh, guys, IC opinion: What do your characters think!
Nobody said slavery will come to an end or anything, this isn't a poll to decide that.
Tenaar, Ani, if you want to argue your ICIOOC=ICIIICC...OOs, please don't do it in this topic, create a new thread for it or do it in person, here's not the place.
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I'll voice my own opinion later when I can be arsed to, personally I think this topic is kind of getting out of hand...but I will point out one thing.
But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.
Tenaar, you're being awfully selfish there cause you're only pointing out that your OOC opinion should matter, when your opinion is that no one's OOC opinion should matter.
If arguing for my point of view is selfish, then that's fine. Desires and opinions are selfish, because we have them & we want/would like to fulfill them/let other people see them (alt. understand & agree with them). If desires and opinions were selfless, nobody would ever have disagreements.
Anyway, I'm done debating this here. I am just thoroughly frustrated with the lack of communication here.
And to note, just because I'm arguing for keeping IC & OOC 100% separate and it is something I practice myself, does not mean I force my ways on other players. But I expect to be IMed if there is something you want to comment on or if you have concerns. If you choose not to IM me & grind your teeth and endure it, then that's not my problem.
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Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.
And that's all I am gonna say about that, because I agree with Ash that such is an discussion best saved for a different topic.
Xian - Indifferent, he was a former slaver and spend a lot of time in the business, he knows that you can't ever banish it completely.
Shyama - Indifferent, he just doesn't care.
Valencia - Indifferent, she has her own pets after all but has commented that it would look good on the empire to perhaps make a change on the subject.
Sable - Is firmly against slavery due to personal history.
Zylia - Ultimately indifferent so long slaves aren't treated badly she wont mind it.
Rayenne - Is for slavery, provided they are well-treated, a content slave is a good slave, unhappy/angered slaves don't make for good slaves.
I got more characters but I'd spend too much time listing them down, and most of them are indifferent towards it with some being for or against it. AKA, it's all varied.
OOCly, I think we should just abolish it to get rid of all the drama llama, but that will only create more drama :P So my vote goes for leaving it as is, or perhaps regulating the rules about it, such as about the treatment and designation of slaves, more considering them as people rather then property.
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Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.
So am I rather to argue for someone else's OOC opinion, character & feelings? I only know my own opinions, characters and feelings. How do you expect me to argue for someone else, when I feel completely differently?
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Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.
So am I rather to argue for someone else's OOC opinion, character & feelings? I only know my own opinions, characters and feelings. How do you expect me to argue for someone else, when I feel completely differently?
Simply because this topic is not solely about your characters or your opinions, it is about the opinions, be they ICly or OOCly, of everyone else, but all you have done is arguinging about your OOC desires and your character's stand in this subject. This topic is not about that, nor is it the place to continue arguing about it further. So either step back, or go make a different topic about IC/OOC matters.
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Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.
So am I rather to argue for someone else's OOC opinion, character & feelings? I only know my own opinions, characters and feelings. How do you expect me to argue for someone else, when I feel completely differently?
Simply because this topic is not solely about your characters or your opinions, it is about the opinions, be they ICly or OOCly, of everyone else, but all you have done is arguinging about your OOC desires and your character's stand in this subject. This topic is not about that, nor is it the place to continue arguing about it further. So either step back, or go make a different topic about IC/OOC matters.
That is much more sensible than telling me that because I'm arguing with standard argumentation (presenting my viewpoint, from my perspective, with examples I have, & working off from what I know, to get my point/desire/opinion out there & try to convince others I'm right), I'm being selfish.
I already knew I was being selfish, but the way you were phrasing it before gave the impression you thought I was being selfish for the wrong reasons. I failed to wrap my head around your logic.
I fully concede this point, & will back off.
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Hm, I know I said I voted for a limited form of slavery since I did take into account OOC desires to play slaves and have no issues with that sort of RP. But seeing this is all about our character's IC opinion of slavery, I ll just list the stance for every single character I have again:
Aryn: Abolish completely
Miri: Only sentenced criminals as a sort of civil service
Navaru: Only those who give themselves freely into slavery/servitude
Daneira: Abolish completely
Luni: is a servant, so does not mind servitude, but does not like forced servitude/slavery
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I agree with many of the others who said that this issue can't be addressed without taking both the roleplay IC and the OOC motivations and desires of your playerbase into account. This doesn't always make for the most realistic gameplay, but that isn't the goal: We are here to have fun and be entertained (while entertaining our fellow players at the same time). Also keep in mind that those that play (and enjoy) slaves and their masters can at the same time have several alts who are quite opposed to the issue IC. So I think a good compromise would be the best approach.
Now for what Xahu's spys would be able to gather from my Chars:
Lord Athian Hoggard - Doesn't mind slavery as a tool to redeem people, like criminals who get a chance to work their way back into society. Does not condone mistreatment of a slave, both physical and verbal. Would personally prefer slaves to be owned by the crown/authorities rather than individuals. They could then in turn allocate these men and women as it is needed, loaning them to people or institutions while keeping an eye on the behavior and well-being of the individual slave.
Killian - Nature has plenty examples of the weak performing services for the strong. There is little wrong with that, as long as the strong tend to and care for the weak that serve them. The truly strong, though, are those, that can let someone grow stronger at their side: While they will lose a slave at some point, they may well gain an ally.
Arondale - Doesn't mind slavery, but thinks that few people are fit to be good masters. In his opinion it isn't slavery itself that has people worried, but the tales of people mistreating their slaves.
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Xela - Does not like slavery (having been enslaved for a short time herself) but understands it for thoes that cannot function without it or as a form of punishment. She has strong moral views so they must be well cared for
Zeela - Strongly pro-slavery. Good for the economy, good for growth, good for her own profit. Sometimes some people must be stepped on so everyone else can can benefit. (the sacrifice for a few benefits many) She also feels slaves should be well cared for however, without good reason for punishment.
Amon - Leaning against slavery, but does not know enough about the world for a strong view.
Rune - Doesnt fully understand slavery. Comes from a place where a degree of servitude is expected from lower ranks. Happily serves those above her.
Derrin - Depends on reasons and if the slave is hot, if he can spend a night with them.
Dawn - A pet herself, does not like the idea of free will. Happy to be a slave/pet as it means she is cared for.
Crescent - Against slavery due to her past, will kill thoes who treat slaves badly.
Luna - Doesnt care.
And as an aside, I am against the idea of disregarding OOC feelings. A balance should be found between IC and OOC, else noone will have fun. There have been plenty of times I've had to act slightly out of character to keep in line with OOC reasons and wishes. Its just the way things are, as I feel doing otherwise will ruin other people's fun and may cause them to leave.