Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)

[Xela]

Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?

Because you said:

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

That sounds pretty cut and dried.

I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.

I agree, and as I pointed out, if slaves and such are really so against slavery IC, they should go to the Temple or Phoenix where they are offered greater freedom than in the City. And I'm sure there are people who are all for slavery ICly, a few of my characters included

[Tenaar Feiri]

Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?

Because you said:

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

That sounds pretty cut and dried.

I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.

Maybe it sounds pretty cut & dried, but I don't deal in subtext. I just literally described what'll happen when the majority vote IC is against it, nowhere in that statement did I (intentionally) imply the following: "OOC doesn't matter".
This hasn't been brought up because it's "broken", it's brought up because people are being vocal IC about the matter. And because the rulers are benevolent, they will try to react in favour of a vocal majority. If the majority of players are in favour of it, which seems to be the case, then they too need to OOCly account for ICA:ICC & have their characters become less vocal, otherwise this is an IC issue that'll eventually be brought up again. It's a case of "help us help you"; less loudness of the anti-slavery crowd IC = less chance of the matter being brought into question again IC = everybody's happy OOC.

And frankly, it makes the characters who push for change in response to the vocal IC response to slavery (specifically in my case, Ewyllyn, who pushed for this) look like idiots for reacting the way they would IC for it & start pushing for change to please the crowd ICly. It really puts them on the spot when all they hear is how bad it is & then they move to change it, and suddenly everybody's happy with it. So I'll admit there is a bit of personal disgruntlement from my end reading the responses and arguments here, because the way it'll play out now thanks to the disparity between the vocal IC majority & the OOC player majority, is that instead of hearing the ICly expected results from the research, she'll be hearing the majority is actually for it.
So what will I have my character claim happened IC? That she was lied to?

If we need to be that considerate of OOC (an attitude I've discouraged from the very beginning, but fine, I can respect it), I think it's even more important to consider the IC repercussions of your IC actions. If you're OOCly opposed to that something should change because of something your character does, then you probably shouldn't have your character do it, otherwise you'll end up making other players feel like idiots because their characters reacted to what your character did. It's just not cool.

[Husky Dragon]

I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.

But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?

[Tenaar Feiri]

I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.

But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?

I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.

[Husky Dragon]

I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.

But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?

I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.

No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.

[Tenaar Feiri]

I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.

But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?

I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.

No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.

But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.

[Husky Dragon]

I believe there are cases like slavery and prostitution where the OOC desire of players need to be considered FIRST, since it's a popular mode of roleplay. Sure, if most characters objected to these morally questionable practices, ICA/ICC would have you outlaw or restrict the practices.

But.. Then, to hell with everyone who oocly enjoys rping that type of stuff, right?

I don't appreciate your hostility, Ani. It is really not contributing to the discussion at all, other than serve to degrade it. My problem is that I seem to be the only one who does unnarrated RP & keeps my OOC and IC separate, because I understand that if my characters do something & other characters react in a way I don't like/approve of OOC, they feel like jackasses. And that's why I advocate taking OOC out of the equation entirely when RPing; It's not specifically separating the two for the sake of segregation.

No hostility intended. My impression of what you're saying is that the OOC desires of players should not be factored into situations like this, and i'm trying to make a point otherwise because I believe that's completely wrong.

But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.

I never once said I didn't consider it. And yes, since I advocate the consideration of OOC desires, I do not advocate the notion that they should not be taken into account.

[Tenaar Feiri]

I never once said I didn't consider it. And yes, since I advocate the consideration of OOC desires, I do not advocate the notion that they should not be taken into account.

In other words, we're pretty much in a feedback loop.

OOC consideration is a two-way street though. We can't have both ICA:ICC AND OOC consideration, not without a lot more communication between players than we have today. Honestly, the way it is today is genuinely discouraging me from engaging in RP with my more influential characters because they will react in their own ways to the things that occur around them. They gain opinions completely dynamically, they react differently to different things, other players around them will dynamically influence their actions, opinions, thoughts & life as a whole.
I'm sure you'd be pretty disgruntled if you would have your character act out of character because someone asked you to. I would most certainly be disgruntled by it (even though I generally will yield on that since I'm staff & I'm not in that position to walk all over players with my own characters, I generally always adapt to suit other players if it's required). And if I have to think about what other players think OOCly all the time, my entire RP process is going to be maybe 3 posts, then an IM to the player I'm RPing with asking if this and that reaction is okay, and that is not how I want to RP, nor do I feel it is very engaging.
And there are other RPers like me in Lismore too, even outside the staff. Are we going to have to just step aside in favour of the other RPers who aren't so happy with freeform RP? Are they not to consider us?

So how do we build an efficient communication platform for OOC->IC without compromising the RP flow and/or frustrating/discouraging player(s)?

[Husky Dragon]

I don't agree at all that ICA:ICC and OOC consideration can't coexist. They have for quite a while, it's just a matter of knowing what is very likely to have an impact on roleplay that people enjoy doing - this is especially true when you're playing a character who is in a position of power.

And about being disgruntled? Maybe, but that entirely depends on why i'm being asked and what i'm being asked to change. You can't generalize it like that.

While RPing with the OOC feelings of others in mind i've never had to second guess myself every three posts.

So, frankly, I don't entirely agree that it's an issue with communication.

[Novaku]

I'll voice my own opinion later when I can be arsed to, personally I think this topic is kind of getting out of hand...but I will point out one thing.

But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.

Tenaar, you're being awfully selfish there cause you're only pointing out that your OOC opinion should matter, when your opinion is that no one's OOC opinion should matter.

[Tenaar Feiri]

I don't agree at all that ICA:ICC and OOC consideration can't coexist. They have for quite a while, it's just a matter of knowing what is very likely to have an impact on roleplay that people enjoy doing - this is especially true when you're playing a character who is in a position of power.

And about being disgruntled? Maybe, but that entirely depends on why i'm being asked and what i'm being asked to change. You can't generalize it like that.

While RPing with the OOC feelings of others in mind i've never had to second guess myself every three posts.

So, frankly, I don't entirely agree that it's an issue with communication.

Let's use this situation as an example then, since slavery was the subject in this topic originally: say you have a character lead a kingdom with 2 people in it, & both of them were against slavery IC, but OOCly told you they don't want the situation to change OOCly, then how are you going to have your leader character react? If that leader is benevolent & would've listened to their people, acting out of character because the other two characters' players OOCly requested things not to change would be a very frustrating experience, would it not?

That's essentially what's happened to Ewyllyn. She's been mingling with the people, listening to their pleas and generally hearing them out, and she hears them even when she's not outside mingling. The result is that the slaver-turned-empress felt, because of the sheer amount of IC feedback, that it was necessary to speak with Xahu about maybe looking at revising the laws or finding a solution to it, the reason for that being that, and I paraphrase from the RP log of that event, "nearly everyone I speak or hear about are crying out against it".
So OK, here I OOCly see an opportunity for my character to try and do something that people will like ICly and that fits just right with how she'd have reacted to this, so I decided to make her go for it, since she does have the power/influence to make even more of a difference than many other characters do.
Since we don't communicate well enough OOCly, how am I supposed to know OOCly that the majority of people OOCly are opposed to see it changed? More frustratingly, why does it take an IC poll to get this kind of OOC information?

How can ICA:ICC occur if OOC is just going to constantly block it? I've submitted to OOC brakes on several occasions before & I still do, I'm not out to ruin anybody's RP, but I would appreciate consideration in return for the way I RP.

Then I run into another issue: how can my character react in a significant way, that won't require me to 'ask permission' from the players it will affect, when their characters are the ones to trigger it in the first place?

I don't think we're going to ever be able to see 100% eye to eye on the matter, Ani, because I see problem after problem where you see none, particularly when engaging with other players who aren't used to me and that I am not used to. And I will end up having to second-guess myself because I keep engaging new people who come to the sim, players that I don't know well, and it's my job to make sure that they have a good experience here.
And that is also a conflict with the way I prefer to RP, simply in the nature of my job here.

So yes, I would actually very much appreciate enough communication to know where people stand on things OOCly if I absolutely have to consider people's OOC when RPing, so instead of freeforming what my characters would do & end up with this discussion, I can actually think up another thing my character would do in response instead so my RP time doesn't have to be wasted ranting angrily about ICA:ICC & OOC consideration... I really feel that my time can be better spent than being a vocal minority against a majority group on this particular subject.

edited: I'm agitated & formulated my response to Nova poorly. I'll reply to that later.

[Ashtyn]

Uh, guys, IC opinion: What do your characters think!

Nobody said slavery will come to an end or anything, this isn't a poll to decide that.

Tenaar, Ani, if you want to argue your ICIOOC=ICIIICC...OOs, please don't do it in this topic, create a new thread for it or do it in person, here's not the place.

[Tenaar Feiri]

I'll voice my own opinion later when I can be arsed to, personally I think this topic is kind of getting out of hand...but I will point out one thing.

But the point I'm trying to make to you is that my OOC desire, is that OOC be left out of RP. And you're outright dismissing my OOC desire without even considering it, while advocating that we need to consider other people's OOC desires.

Tenaar, you're being awfully selfish there cause you're only pointing out that your OOC opinion should matter, when your opinion is that no one's OOC opinion should matter.

If arguing for my point of view is selfish, then that's fine. Desires and opinions are selfish, because we have them & we want/would like to fulfill them/let other people see them (alt. understand & agree with them). If desires and opinions were selfless, nobody would ever have disagreements.


Anyway, I'm done debating this here. I am just thoroughly frustrated with the lack of communication here.
And to note, just because I'm arguing for keeping IC & OOC 100% separate and it is something I practice myself, does not mean I force my ways on other players. But I expect to be IMed if there is something you want to comment on or if you have concerns. If you choose not to IM me & grind your teeth and endure it, then that's not my problem.

[Novaku]

Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.

And that's all I am gonna say about that, because I agree with Ash that such is an discussion best saved for a different topic.

Xian - Indifferent, he was a former slaver and spend a lot of time in the business, he knows that you can't ever banish it completely.

Shyama - Indifferent, he just doesn't care.

Valencia - Indifferent, she has her own pets after all but has commented that it would look good on the empire to perhaps make a change on the subject.

Sable - Is firmly against slavery due to personal history.

Zylia - Ultimately indifferent so long slaves aren't treated badly she wont mind it.

Rayenne - Is for slavery, provided they are well-treated, a content slave is a good slave, unhappy/angered slaves don't make for good slaves.

I got more characters but I'd spend too much time listing them down, and most of them are indifferent towards it with some being for or against it. AKA, it's all varied.

OOCly, I think we should just abolish it to get rid of all the drama llama, but that will only create more drama So my vote goes for leaving it as is, or perhaps regulating the rules about it, such as about the treatment and designation of slaves, more considering them as people rather then property.

[Tenaar Feiri]

Tenaar, considering your arguments go about your OOC opinion, your Character, Your feelings, then yes I am going to point out you're being selfish in this topic.

So am I rather to argue for someone else's OOC opinion, character & feelings? I only know my own opinions, characters and feelings. How do you expect me to argue for someone else, when I feel completely differently?