Poll

What does your character think should be done about slavery in Lismore?

Leave it as it is! Slaves have it good here!
8 (36.4%)
Abolish it completely! Set everybody free!
1 (4.5%)
Limit it further - Only condemned people shall be made into slaves; no slaves can be imported from abroad.
4 (18.2%)
Limit it further - Only people who choose to sell/give themselves into slavery can be slaves.
4 (18.2%)
Abolish partially - No new slaves can be made or imported. Only the existing ones remain enslaved.
1 (4.5%)
Other (please post your character's opinion)
4 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: February 04, 2014, 04:25:29 am

Author Topic: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)  (Read 19863 times)

Ashtyn

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Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« on: February 01, 2014, 04:24:32 am »
There have been some rumors and debates concerning Lismore's slavery laws and practices, so once again Xahu, wanting to know what the people are thinking without being put on the spot, hired a few secret agents, to wander around and listen, and in case where conversation is possible, outright ask people what they think should be done about slavery in Lismore. These agents would be undetectable from background NPCs that would be around town on a daily basis.

This poll is to simulate them gathering information! You can assume your character(s) came in contact with one of these agents at some point, or was overheard if you're the vocal type who would call for someone's death after a few mugs of beer at the inn. So please cast your vote as to what your character would have said that should be done about slavery in Lismore! 

(you can choose TWO options on the list, or post your own idea)



Remember this is all IC opinions! In RP slavery is a plot element, a kink, a fetish, a pretend situation. This has nothing to do with RL slavery which is preposterous!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:26:38 am by Ashtyn »

Aryn Gentlepaw

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 05:00:05 am »
I voted for the limit further options, because IC all my characters would just flat out abolish it. Since I know some want to play slaves and a compromise is the most likely thing to happen ICly if anything would be changed i picked the most likely options. Limiting it to criminals and those who give themselves freely :)
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Lycanthrope

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 02:53:23 pm »
   I think the issue is clarity and definition, too many people playing "slaves" when they should be playing Indentures, Serfs or Bondsmen

A Slave is a tool, more on the level of a plow or horse then a person, this is not to say they are simple things quite the contrary. a slave is a valuable investment in time training and keeping but they are not people and many who play "slaves" play them as slaves in title only they are never treated as such. they are more or less one of the lowest rungs on the social ladder despite some having privelage and comfy lives they should not, unless their work requires it be socialising with others above their station. there should be laws about where they can go, they should not be permitted weapons and hostile acts even in self defense should be grounds for severe punishment, except in cases where they might be defending their owners or their owners home and property. and they can be altered or used in any manner their owners see fit with little to no protection from the law, tho chopping them up in the city square would likly get the owner in trouble, it shouldnt be seen as much worse then someone trashing a car. The owner is also responsible for any act or crime the slave engages in.

Indentured Servants on the other hand are criminals or debtors who are working off their debts, they have a set time or value they must work off then they become free again, usualy they are also required to "earn their keep" paying for food housing and clothing beyond their assigned chores to work off their debt, these ARE people, and while the holder of their contract can punish them and if nessesary shackle them to keep them working, they are basicly employees who have no choice in the matter, their contract can be sold and offten have zero say in how they are to pay off their debt, the contract holder can not willy nilly beat them or work them to death or abuse them and they should be treated as citizens tho a rather low rung on the social ladder until they pay off their debt. Their owner while he cant be willy nilly on their treatment, is also not responsible for their indentured servant's activities outside of what hes told. The law will generaly step in if any sort of abuse occures tho it will also enforce the Indetured contract running away is usualy punished by lengthening of the contract, murder modification and the like would not be allowed, but flight risks would offten be chained or caged when not supervised.

  a Bondsman is similiar to an indentured Servant, they are someone who has agreed or contracted a certain time period for money training or some other favor, they are neither to be treated as slaves or Indentures these are employees pure and simple, the initial agreement usualy sets the amount of time, and labors involved and both parties are in complete agreement similiar to a work contract the Bondsman will be provided for by his employer and should be protected under the law as any normal employee. This is purely a buisness contract abuses would be treated as assault, and dereliction of the bondsman in his duties would be seen as a breach of contract. This is a person of any standing and his bond doesn't effect his social status much and may raise it in some cases such as an apprenticeship to a great warrior or wizard.

  a Serf is basicly a low ranking citizen, they are bound to the land they work on for their lord, they are people but with some limits on their freedom, they are usualy not permitted to emigrate elsewhere but they are people and should be as such, as long as they work the land and pay their taxes their local lord should also make sure they are kept safe and healthy.

  I think the issue a lack of clarification and proper views.

Lili

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 03:48:01 pm »
Okay, personally? I can see what Lycanthrope (because i dont know what character he has, to be honest) means, and i agree actually. Andrea is my slave-character. She is used to be the lowest thing on the social ladder, to be abused, to be treated badly, beaten and after all she was more like a rare sex-slave as a chameleon. So something people got and thought "Well, look how wealthy i am." She was a furniture or maid at best, and tied to a chair in a questionable position at worst - and most importantly - most of the time, and her personality is nothing anyone cared about. She had one use and her vocal cords where cut so she could not annoy her owners with anything else... It's... probably odd but i kind of like that idea of a character like that. The point is she is not dumb, she is not under educated because of her life before her abduction, but with one exception that never mattered. And that kind of what i think a slave has to go through. They where poor people that got into slavery either by abduction or by being born into it because one reason or the other made them appear worthless to a majority.

Its the thing of the owner of course how he treats his slave. Andrea was owned by Sansha and Tari till they stopped playing and is now owned by Vheljen who are both nice characters. They treat their slaves more like friends, housemaids, people paid to work for them. I admit i would like and have liked them to be much more strict, but im fine with how it is too because it is and was fun playing with them always, but i agree strongly here that the laws should be more strict. In RL and most of my characters despise slavery obviously but... For the RP you either keep slavery and have it feel like slavery due to laws and restrictions that need to be enforced by the owners, or you can kind of drop the idea all together. I think we kind of play that role because we... got a strange enjoyment for this feeling of being controlled, owned, held in check and all. So just as well give us pressure by law. x..x I... actually liked the idea of this check up for slaves if they had any sort of illnesses or what nots, and i was... kind of sad it was not really a thing and just flavor-text for the news... because it would give a bit of that feeling of pressure, which is also something important for a character if you want to develop him or her.

If you make slaves sell themselfs and this is the only way they become slaves, i could not play Andrea by the way. She spend half of her life as a slave, and despite being still rather young, she can not just go and do things on her own, which was quite a thing to rp with since i made her, with characters trying to help her develop into something that can live on its own. If its a decision, it is not a slave to begin with anyhow, which you can also see out of Lycans post. Its an entirely different thing then, so if you want to do that, you can just as well throw it out entirely because it misses the whole point, and you are nothing but a butler. Just my five cents!

So about the characters...

Most of them are against it. Kira risked being jailed.. or at least wanted for a while to free a group of slaves (but thats not ic knowledge, nobody caught her after all till the thing was payed for). She is a street-kid grown up after all, and somehow feels close to people that are in a similar situation like slaves are, but even worse off as they lack the chance of a free will. Robin was a slave and is still so traumatized he does not like living in cities, amongst another thing just few people know. Harleen despises slavery because she is a very very moral doctor. She has something like the Hippocratic oath for herself, even helping wounded enemies and obviously slaves don't work with a personality like that. Thats some examples.

However, some of mine are pro or indifferent. Quinn does not care, simply because she follows the laws very closely unless the one making them is corrupt or the law itself is against the laws of Kynesguard. But even tho slaves are innocent; When the law protects slavery, she cant involve herself. She is like that. Miralda and S'Kifcha both got a certain Agenda: If you are a slave, and are not strong enough to stop being a slave, you probably are better of as one. Miralda does that in a careless manner however, while in S'Kifchas case, it is an opinion, but she will gladly aid anyone who is willing to break free. Both had to fight a lot to be what they are, but are much rougher then Kira is in their judgements.

I think we should not at all remove that concept tho... Maybe the majority of played characters is against it, but lets assume the NPCs are all loving it. |D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 05:13:19 pm by Lili »
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Ashtyn

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2014, 04:47:18 pm »
[...] I... actually liked the idea of this check up for slaves if they had any sort of illnesses or what nots, and i was... kind of sad it was not really a thing and just flavor-text for the news... because it would give a bit of that feeling of pressure, which is also something important for a character if you want to develop him or her.

...oh yes, thank you for reminding me! We need to set a date for that as an event!

Ashtyn

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2014, 04:55:24 pm »
...and let's not forget something: This is potential for IC situations. This has nothing to do with OOC "I like to play a slave" sentiment. Some people have often complained that they can't do anything to alter the RP, well, here you have it, alter it if your character would do it so! This kind of IC social reform could lead into all kinds of interesting situations, from throngs of slaves thrown out in the streets because their former masters don't want them as "workers", to illegal trades conducted in the back of an alley at night, to the tightening/loosening of laws concerning slavery, and everything in-between.  :)

And again, this is a research on people's opinions, not a "we will do exactly as the votes decide!". Xahu likes to know what the people are thinking/feeling, to help him make an educated decision when the subject of slavery inevitably comes up, so to keep his approval rate high with the people.   ;)

Radem

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 12:28:01 am »
As far as the inspections, we can try to find a way to increase the number of people who can perform the inspections so that they're more eventy than flavor texty, but folks would have to find someone willing to do it. The last thing we want is to put obligations on our inspectors - "HEY! I'm here, you have to inspect me now, the law says so!"

Radem's abbreviated take:

  • No one should be born into slavery.
  • No one should be made a slave because they're less good at swinging a pointy stick than someone else.
  • There are some rare cases where people who commit crimes should be indentured or enslaved until such time as they make amends for what they did. If you break your neighbor's fence, you see to it the fence is fixed. If you keep breaking it because you're a rich jerk and don't care, then you should be made to pick up a hammer and nails and fix it yourself.

Lili

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2014, 01:57:05 pm »
I doubt thats how it should be anyway. .o. Have it an Event, have the Leaders declare someone either calling them all together or going from house to house. So...
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Xela

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2014, 02:03:33 pm »
I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"

People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.

Tenaar Feiri

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2014, 03:22:44 pm »
I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"

People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.

Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

Ookamisuke

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2014, 04:05:39 pm »
Generally I would vote to leave it as is or abolish partially (No new slaves imported). However, in the case of extreme crimes, I wouldn't be against forced servitude. Say someone threatens the royal family (And is believed widely to carry out that threat at the earliest convenience). They would be forced to serve the public somehow, and their home painted a red color. Why Red? To symbolize the blood they wanted to spill.

In the case of EXTREME crimes (Such as murder/Pre-med murder), the character themselves will be given a loin cloth or some other article of clothing that will mark them as a criminal slave, forced to serve out their sentence by esrving the city. These criminals would have -no- rights, and -no- property. Their bodies would belong to the royal family, and therefore, the City of Lismore. Killing one of these slaves would be punishable by excruciating death ((Call that part my inner demon speaking))

I doubt any of my ideas will be used, but here they are. ^^

Husky Dragon

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 06:59:53 pm »
I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"

People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.

Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

ICA:ICC is not an end-all explanation. What people want OOCly should be taken into account.

Radem

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 07:23:52 pm »

Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

I bet a majority of characters are against taxes too. And rich people being too rich. And a lack of free pie on demand at all times.

I think the OOC opinion on "what's the most fun" trumps IC sensibilities.

Tenaar Feiri

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 10:26:34 pm »
I am of the ooc opinion; "its not broken, why fix it?"

People like playing slaves/servants, so why outlaw it and drive thoes people away?
If people want to play a slave getting freedom, The Temple and Phoenix can help them with that.

Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

ICA:ICC is not an end-all explanation. What people want OOCly should be taken into account.


Because this is IC Actions == IC Consequenses.

If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

I bet a majority of characters are against taxes too. And rich people being too rich. And a lack of free pie on demand at all times.

I think the OOC opinion on "what's the most fun" trumps IC sensibilities.

Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:30:46 pm by Tenaar Feiri »

Radem

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Re: Xahu's Secret Research! (slavery in Lismore)
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2014, 12:14:26 am »
Never said it shouldn't. I merely remarked upon that this secret research is triggered as an ICC of people publicly (and very vocally) denouncing slavery, & that it has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not. That's literally all I said. I don't understand where both of you got "we shouldn't take people's OOC opinions into account"?

Because you said:

Quote
If the majority of characters are against slavery IC, then slavery is going to get restricted or outlawed. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's broken.

That sounds pretty cut and dried.

I contend that even if the majority of characters are against slavery IC, if the majority of players are in favor of it, it should probably stay.